Cathal Flameridge (cathal83) wrote in sumerian_pagan,
Cathal Flameridge

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History of Sumerian Reconstructionism

I have a bit of a conundrum facing me. A person I am having a huge debate with online is claiming that a person who goes by the name of Ellen Sorenson was the first known Reconstructionist of the Phoenician / Canaanite path. And that this person basically was a prophetess of the Goddess that according to Ellen (via this person I am debating with) was referred to as Ashteroth. The problem I am having is that I know for a fact that the Goddess was not known as Ashteroth outside of the Biblical accounts in ancient times. So either this person wasn't a very good prophetess or they didn't do their research into the origin of the Goddess.

The major problem I am having is that this person is also claiming that there was an elderly prophetess of this Goddess at the same time (in the early to late 1980's) who lived in India, and that this Ellen Sorenson was to be the Priestess' successor in the world.

The real issue is that this man whom I am debating with is claiming that Ellen was trying to create a power base via sexual ritual abuse and magical sexual ritual abuse as well as through the use of Drugs. He is also claiming that he was able to thwart their plans using the Power of the Christian God the way that the prophet who thwarted Jezebel in the Bible did against Jezebel. The problem I have is I always assumed the story of Jezebel was merely a propaganda peice agains the Canaanites.

Additionally I am assuming that you guys are either familiar with this story if it is true, or are capable of debunking it if it is not true, either way, I would be greatly appreciative of any help you can provide to me :D

And FYI I am a fellow Reconstructionist (though it has been a while for me since I have practiced my own Religion, I am a Celtic Reconstructionist). His claims are really beginning to bug me. So any assistance you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
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Dealing with those who 'know all' and listen to no other conversations or reason let alone rationale (somehow i find them most in the Christian related groups) the following ol' southern u.s. saying applies: (Also attributed to Robert Heinlein)

“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”

If you continue to engage the individual, it will never end. The pissing contest shall continue as he will always see himself justified as 'right' regardless of the facts.

Best of luck!
you haven't given any information about why you're even taking this person seriously, so I hope that my reply will help. on what documentation, first of all, is this person basing his story? second, why do you care? whatever all that silliness may turn out to be, it has very little to do with research into authentic sumerian religion, which last time I checked was the only valid ground for sumerian reconstructionist paganism. so what's there to debate? sounds like just another standard issue wacko. regardless of the truth of his claims about this person, whoever it was just doesn't quality as a valid reconstructionist if they didn't know what the god names were. as for whatever tricks they employed to sell gullible folks on their "revelation," once again I just don't see what the connection or problem is. none of what I read in your post seemed to have anything at all to do with the gods and godesses of ancient sumer.
thank you much for the insight, that is pretty much exactly what I thought :D

As for why I am taking him seriously, the main thing is, I don't take him seriously. The problem is he tends to drop in on all of the discussions about Paganism, regardless of who started them and starts spouting off his nonsense, and nothing we can say will make him go away. So about the only thing we can try to do is to disprove his claims each and every time so that people don't mistake his claims as actual legitimate truth.
I think you might re-evaluate the last sentence you just wrote here. There is no need to disprove his claims: the burden of proof is on him, especially if the claims are out there. All you have to do is simply point out that he has no proof and is wrong; there is no need to worry about how. I wouldn't worry too much about policing the esoteric internet, as there's nothing any of us can do to prevent idiots from ranting their nonsense on forums. I don't see any need in flagging all BS as BS at the level of forums--everybody who takes an interest in this kinda thing really ought to learn to think for themselves and learn about critical thinking basics like how claims are defended. You also run the risk of coming across as pedantic if you feel the need to give lengthy rebuttals to what doesn't merit a response.

What we really need is better systems for evaluating and ranking posts based on quality, as on slashdot. I miss the days of killfiles
I think ignoring him would be the best thing you can do, frankly.

-I've never heard of this Ellen Sorenson.
- The story of Jezebel is more than a propaganda piece- it's a socio-religious myth with mystical undertones. But really, what power of god was involved? A bunch of guys threw her out a window- not really a giant exhibition of power, more like a personal and political betrayal.

I suspect that this man is delusional and "debating" with him is wasting your time AND giving him power. Just stop. If he posts, respond by saying "This man is obsessive and has no proof of his wild claims," and move on.
It may not actually have to do with the Deities of the questioned era/places, but it does constitute a continued cultural attack from a male oppressor (whether its the man in question, or his God,) against an oppressed female force (i.e. the Goddess and those of we who are into worshiping female divinity.)

Frankly, I'd just say he qualifies as insulting harassment.

In fact, if he weren't already digging his own grave to sleep in, I'd say such idiocy is grounds for cursing or hexing. I kind of wouldn't worry about it, I don't sense anything terribly dangerous. Go for a binding if he starts messing with you magickally.

(I've had similar situations. An episcopalian priest in Texas decided to hex me over talking about my relationship with Babalon in a comm once. That was NOT a mature thing to do, I hadn't even been talking to him.)

Seriously though, some of us have past life memories, or can see through time when the conditions are right, and some of us are still really sore about the murder of Queen Jezebel.

When guys like him piss on her grave, I sharpen my knives.

On a lighter note, in solidarity with her, I recently named one of my kittens Jezebel. My, is she regal.

(Would you perhaps consider that he is a reconstructionist of his own tradition? "Goddess-Bashing Reclaiming," I can see it now...)